When it comes to bootstrapping and building software, there's rarely one right answer. The Panel is a new podcast with a purpose: explore the nuance. We want to move past the easy answers, "drive-by advice," and Twitter gurus. In every episode, veteran founders Justin Jackson and Brian Casel bring together sharp minds from the tech world to tackle thorny topics – from pricing and product strategy to work-life balance. No gurus, no easy answers – just real conversations we'd normally have behind closed doors.
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I've watched some of my most talented dev friends apply to hundreds of jobs… and get nowhere.
I wanted to ask my friends @calebporzio1 , @taylorotwell6213 , and @briancasel why getting hired as a web developer in 2025 is so hard.
You can listen to our whole conversation here:
https://panelpodcast.com/2
Watch the whole video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je8zGXgB2Uk
Here are a few of our observations:
- The job market in 2021 was artificially inflated. There was lots of money sloshing around, valuations were high, and everyone was over-hiring.
- Companies that over-hired in 2021 are now laying people off, flooding the market with experienced developers.
- The bar for entry-level positions has risen significantly. Companies now want candidates with more experience, skills, and proven results.
- Bootcamps haven't adjusted to market reality. They're still selling the 2021 dream.
From my perspective, the enduring reality (in any economy) is that the pool of good employers and exceptional talent is always limited.
In most economies, there will always be opportunities for people with a lot of talent and passion who have made strong connections in the industry.
So what can you do?
- You have a better chance of landing a role through your network than through cold applications. Build relationships, attend local meetups, and message your existing contacts.
- Focus every part of your communication (resume, cover letter, LinkedIn profile, etc.) on how you can solve the boss's problems. Companies don't hire developers to fill seats; they hire to accomplish something. Figure out what that is and target it.
- Show confidence, passion, and curiosity. A lot of devs I know undervalue what they're capable of. Employers want to see a passion for the craft and a curiosity about the business and its current challenges. It's good to suggest how you might improve a company during an interview! What can you bring to the team?
Find us on Bluesky:
Justin Jackson – https://bsky.app/profile/justinjackson.ca
Brian Castle – https://bsky.app/profile/briancasel.com
Links mentioned in the episode:
🧰 Instrumental Products: https://instrumentalproducts.com/
🎤 Transistor podcast hosting: https://transistor.fm/?via=youtube
Subscribe to The Panel for weekly discussions with smart founders about building better products and better lives:
https://panelpodcast.com/subscribe
Is web development still a good career choice in 2025? What's the future of open source? Justin and Brian dive deep with Taylor Otwell (Laravel) and Caleb Porzio (Livewire, Alpine.js, Flux) about the state of web dev, building a business on open source, and the anxiety of managing competition.
00:00 Introduction to The Panel
03:31 Should people still pursue web development as a career?
11:04 Are we still excited about the web? Why is Laravel growing?
16:27 How big are your customers?
25:23 How interested are developers on the business side of Saas?
34:39 How did you think about open source when you were getting started?
41:19 How do you think about being a creator when you have a large business?
55:57 The next-generation of Laravel devs pipeline
01:00:47 Rethinking open source
01:10:52 What's your anxiety level towards competition?
🎧 Listen to this episode as an audio podcast:
https://panelpodcast.com/2
@calebporzio1 says "I don't recommend it. The people I've told to get into webdev haven't been able to get jobs."
@taylorotwell6213 wonders if it's because the bar is higher (only senior devs getting hired)
This is a clip from Episode 2 of The Panel podcast:
https://panelpodcast.com/episodes
Who would have thought that PHP would be the hot web development skill in 2025? With all the tech layoffs, it's surprising to see who is still hiring.
Taylor Otwell, Caleb Porzio, Justin Jackson, and Brian Casel discuss the state of programming careers in an upcoming episode of The Panel.
https://panelpodcast.com/
Episode 1 of The Panel podcast, with @JustinJackson, @briancasel, Tyler King, and Colleen Schnettler is out now!
https://panelpodcast.com/1
Is bootstrapping a SaaS dead in 2025? In this episode, four founders debate the future of building a web app business.
@JustinJackson ( @TransistorPodcasting ) and @briancasel (Instrumental Products) are joined by Colleen Schnettler (SaaS Marketing Gym) and Tyler King (Less Annoying CRM) for a candid discussion about the future of bootstrapped SaaS in 2025.
CHAPTERS:
0:00 - What to expect
8:03 - Is SaaS Getting Harder in 2025?
9:54 - Bootstrapped SaaS is past its prime
13:10 - "Can you really build a good product with AI?"
16:38 - "No-Code is in trouble, AI makes product discovery harder, SaaS goldrush is over."
18:55 - What kind of business should you start in 2025?
21:12 - AI can't replace the craft and expertise required to launch a good product
23:44 - Is it harder to go from Zero to One?
25:01 - Marketing predictions - what's going to work this year?
32:36 - "Nothing works. Marketing is bullshit." – Tyler King
35:21 - People want to interact with real humans (Reddit, podcasts, YouTube)
36:52 - Organic search is still big (but AI is sending some traffic)
38:58 - How you can win against AI and other competitors: customer support
41:11 - A bootstrapper's advantage is that they're small and they care
44:05 - Question for the listener: have you had a good customer support experience with AI chatbots?
45:05 - Another tactic that might work: get people on the phone!
46:45 - Should we all short Tesla stock?
49:57 - Our plans for 2025
Find us on Bluesky:
Colleen Schnettler – https://bsky.app/profile/leenyburger.bsky.social
Tyler King – https://bsky.app/profile/tylerking.app
Justin Jackson – https://bsky.app/profile/justinjackson.ca
Brian Castle – https://bsky.app/profile/briancasel.com
Links mentioned in the episode:
🧰 Instrumental Products: https://instrumentalproducts.com/
🏋️♀️ SaaS Marketing Gym: https://saasmarketinggym.com
📂 Simple File Upload: https://www.simplefileupload.com/
📇 Less Annoying CRM: https://www.lessannoyingcrm.com/
🎙️ Startup to Last Podcast: https://www.startuptolast.com/
🎤 Transistor podcast hosting: https://transistor.fm/?via=youtube
Subscribe to The Panel for weekly discussions with smart founders about building better products and better lives:
https://panelpodcast.com/subscribe
Here's a preview of the first episode of The Panel!
@JustinJackson (@TransistorPodcasting) and @briancasel (Instrumental Products)are joined Colleen Schnettler (SaaS Marketing Gym) and Tyler King (Less Annoying CRM) for a candid discussion about the future of bootstrapped SaaS in 2025.
A few highlights:
- Will starting a SaaS be harder in 2025?
- Is AI going to really going to kill software development jobs?
- What's actually going to work when it comes to marketing?
- How to stand out in an AI era
- What each of us is focused on for 2025
Find us on Bluesky:
Colleen Schnettler – https://bsky.app/profile/leenyburger.bsky.social
Tyler King – https://bsky.app/profile/tylerking.app
Justin Jackson – https://bsky.app/profile/justinjackson.ca
Brian Castle – https://bsky.app/profile/briancasel.com
Links mentioned in the episode:
🧰 Instrumental Products: https://instrumentalproducts.com/
🏋️♀️ SaaS Marketing Gym: https://saasmarketinggym.com
📇 Less Annoying CRM: https://www.lessannoyingcrm.com/
🎙️ Startup to Last Podcast: https://www.startuptolast.com/
🎤 Transistor podcast hosting: https://transistor.fm/?via=youtube
Subscribe to The Panel for weekly discussions with smart founders about building better products and better lives:
https://panelpodcast.com/subscribe
When it comes to bootstrapping and building software, there's rarely one correct answer.
The secret to building better products, profitable companies, and a better life is knowing how to find the best answer for you. That’s the purpose of The Panel podcast.
Join hosts @JustinJackson (Transistor.fm) and @briancasel (Instrumental Products) in each episode as they bring together a panel of founders, software developers, and friends to discuss hot topics like:
- What's really working in SaaS marketing
- The impact of AI on product development
- Open source vs closed source business models
- Niche markets vs broad markets
- One-time vs recurring revenue models
- Age and experience perspectives in tech
Timestamps:
0:00 The story - why we wanted to start this show
2:03 Meet your hosts - Justin Jackson & Brian Casel
2:45 Topics we'll cover
3:32 The power of different perspectives
4:18 We need your help
5:05 We'll be doing video and audio
🔗 Join our waiting list at panelpodcast.com
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